OTL Bio[]
What's with the OTL bio? We don't have that for most historicals. Also, if he's deceased, shouldn't his date of death go alongside 1952? Turtle Fan 13:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm starting to creep those in. HT is broadening his sweep. Characters, like e.g. Cornwallis, are routinely referenced in many works for what they did before the POD (which is identical to OTL), so it makes some sense to have a few sentences saying who they were in OTL. And anyway, in Crosstime Traffic, there are characters who know that there are different timelines.
- Putin's death date is unknown in this timeline, but since it's set in 2097, I think it's safe to assume he's dead. TR 15:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
We've got some articles with things like "1809-18??" in them.
If you must talk about the real Putin--to whom the above test does not apply--perhaps something simple like "Bad Vlad became the second President of the Russian Federation in 1999" would be more appropriate. The rather detailed account of his elections which you give is as long as the article itself--which by the way would seem to suggest he's not significant enough to rate an article-lengthener the way historicals who play an active role in their stories are.
On a different note, am I correct in understanding this as the first reference in print by HT to a contemporary political leader? Turtle Fan 16:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Dont' forget the oblique reference to Prime Minister Anthony Charles Lynton Blair in ItPoME. Elefuntboy 01:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
- As far I as know, Putin is the first living political leader directly referenced by HT (although Harold Stassen was an elderly also-ran when Colonization came out). TR 03:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
- I refuse to acknowledge the existence of HT's craven attempts to have the cake of edgily portraying modern political leaders and eat the cake of being inoffensive too in ItPoME. I don't remember Stassen doing anything in 2000, was he the Ted Gravel of that year? I didn't really follow that race till it had winnowed down quite a bit. Turtle Fan 13:46, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
- Stassen actually ran nearly every election there for a while.
- "I call it my 'eggs a la Harold Stassen.' They're always running!"
- But '92 was his last run. The end of an era. He was still alive for the 2000 campaign, but he didn't take a crack at it, even though the Republican field was unusually crowded that year, if memory serves. (Though now that I think of it I can only come up with two major candidates (Bush and McCain), one who was expected to be major but never got it going (Forbes) and a candidate who existed to make faces at the majors (Keyes, over the unpleasantness of debating with whom Bush allegedly once attempted to bond with Obama).) He died on March 4, 2001--and oddly enough I remember exactly what I was doing that day. And no it wasn't like remembering what you were doing the day Kennedy died, either; I didn't realize he was dead till years later. I wonder whether I would have recognized his name - I'd read the first two Colonization books, but his role in those was quite insignificant.
- You know, Stassen sought the Presidency in vain so many times that I almost wonder whether HT's having him actually obtain it was meant as an inside joke in and of itself. Turtle Fan 02:39, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, I'm sure. TR 15:40, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
- Poor Stassen. At the time of his death, he finally attains his dream in some universe, only to serve as a means to make an author and his readers chuckle at his expense. Turtle Fan 16:45, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Dictator OTL[]
- I'll leave Putin out of the Dictators (OTL). For now. TR 01:52, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
- I agree, the waters surrounding his dictatorial tendencies are still a bit muddy, if only because he's kept them that way deliberately. He's still working within the constitutional framework, at least, and didn't try to buck his obligation to vacate the presidential residence at the end of his eight years and install a mouthpiece whom he could control from the highest office for which he is eligible until he can get the term limits lifted. Such adherence to the legal forms puts him one up on many a dictator I could name. Also, he's terribly weak in terms of fixing elections. You never see Yedina Rossiya get anywhere near the returns that the Nazis, the Korean Workers' Party, the Ba'ath Party and so forth get/got in sham elections. Putin and Co actually need to contest elections.
- Unfortunately, they most often need to contest them with the Communists. Talk about a rock and a hard place, huh? Turtle Fan 02:39, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
A decade later, I think the waters are much clearer and we should put him into the OTL dictators. TR (talk) 16:18, May 19, 2019 (UTC)
Update[]
Has our opinion changed 4 years later? I think extensive defenestration, imprisonment of enemies, reduction of civil rights in Russia, the rewriting of the constitution to allow him to maintain the presidency, and the invasion of Ukraine all qualify him as a dictator, but others may disagree. TR (talk) 17:13, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- I have no qualm with that.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 01:48, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
- A dictator at minimum. I would also accept barbarian, warlord, and pirate king. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:37, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
From Page 200 of BA[]
"Even if the Soviet Union stopped being the Soviet Union, and went back to being Russia for whatever reason, whoever was in charge would use [secret policemen] to keep an eye on things. Unless, of course, he happened to be a secret policeman himself."
Ha! Take that, you barechested bastard! Turtle Fan (talk) 05:13, August 20, 2015 (UTC)
Leader of the Soviet Union chart[]
A chart could be made for TGlad, showing Stalin, Khrushchev and Putin. Since Khrushchev isn't actually mentioned in the novel he would have to be a "presumed", and the lit comm could say "The POD of this novel is not clearly defined, but probably came during either Stalin's or Khrushchev's reign. Stalin is referenced several times, Khrushchev is not." The dates would be 1953-19??, as Khrushchev probably would have enjoyed a longer tenure in this timeline if he was in fact in office.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 08:46, February 16, 2017 (UTC)
- The succession charts begin with the office holder at the known POD. Stalin wouldn't be in it at all, Khrushchev would have an asterisk, and only Putin would be definitive. So, no, it's not workable. TR (talk) 16:45, February 16, 2017 (UTC)
Athlete?[]
I'm not sure he belongs in the athletes cat. His sporting career appears to be barely more relevant to our purposes than Abraham Lincoln's legendary amateur wrestling career.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 08:59, May 19, 2019 (UTC)
- I think I agree. Turtle Fan (talk) 10:13, May 19, 2019 (UTC)
Putin is unnecessary[]
Russia Could Never Discredit The US Empire The Way These Guys Just Did.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 02:18, October 1, 2020 (UTC)
Ah, bothsiderism, the world view for people who think they can set their houses on fire and that their family won't die in the blaze. TR (talk) 14:50, October 1, 2020 (UTC)
Yes, the false equivalencies are really infuriating. Seth Myers did a good send-up of it last time, though it stopped being funny afterward. . . . Turtle Fan (talk) 15:43, October 1, 2020 (UTC)
Of current events and our project[]
I'm starting to believe Vlad is going to join Richard Nixon as someone who lived longer in Turtledove's fiction than he did in real life. TR (talk) 16:02, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Oh I hope so. Turtle Fan (talk) 01:12, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Minor edits[]
The link to "Russian Federation" is the opening should probably be to "Russia|Russian Federation" rather than linking only "Russian". Also, The Gladiator info box should probably be moved down to the story section.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 05:01, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
Well....[]
...this has been an interesting 24 hours. TR (talk) 16:57, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
- That's one word for it. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
- 'President Putin's speech was packed with references to "betrayal" and Russia having been "stabbed in the back."' - BBC News.