Sounds interesting. I hope it's more than just "The shoe's on the other foot now, but the world still sucks!" stuff. TR 16:12, March 17, 2010 (UTC)
- Curious as to how he'll pull it off. All right, so the Philistines conquered Israel instead of vice versa. That shouldn't change the fact that the Assyrians, Babylonians, Macedonians, Romans, Byzantines, Parthians, Ottomans, British, French, and God only knows who all else have conquered both of them many times since. We're to believe that Philistia ruling Judea would have become a superpower capable of holding off all comers down through the countless ages?
- Well I guess we'll figure it out at the end of the year. Turtle Fan 19:50, March 17, 2010 (UTC)
That was ... different. Some of the "shoe" effect but a lot of twee variations too. ML4E 19:58, March 19, 2010 (UTC)
- I'm guessing you got a hold of Time Twisters, then? TR 20:00, March 19, 2010 (UTC)
- Correct. The TPL has one copy but only in the SF Reference Library so I can't borrow it but I did take notes as I read it. ML4E 20:04, March 19, 2010 (UTC)
- So he has Goliath win the fight. Interesting. I might ask who Tabitas is and what happened to David.
- Perhaps Tabitas is the Philistian linguistic equivalent of David? TR 20:56, March 19, 2010 (UTC)
- Hmm . . . Now that you mention it, that could easily be shifted in transliteration. Turtle Fan 21:02, March 19, 2010 (UTC)
- I hadn't thought of that. When I read the story, I thought he might have been an alternate champion who David supplanted in OTL but didn't in the ATL. I thought it might be from Jewish folklore rather than the Talmud much the same as the way we have the names of the Three Wisemen in Bethlehem. Googling has not come up with anything, however. Any idea on "Evraioi" where he is from? Nothing from google again. ML4E 03:02, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know much Jewish folklore. In the Scriptural version no one wants to fight Goliath before David shows up, which is the only reason Saul allows him to do so. It's also the reason David wants to accept the challenge: shame at the idea that not a single Jew will do it. Considering how lionized David is, and what a good light this version of the story casts him in, I'd be inclined to doubt this being contradicted, but I couldn't say.
- Evraioi? Doesn't ring any bells. Normally I'd Google it before saying something so unhelpful, but. . . . Turtle Fan 03:34, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
- Still not sure why Philistia's victory should endure down through the countless ages. The Israelites weren't able to hold onto the region for long, not once the Assyrians and Babylonians wanted it. Then the Hellenes, Romans, Persians, Turks. . . . The fact that Israel has a country today has nothing to do with the fact that it did in ancient times.
- The story mentions that the Turks, Romans and Philip of Macedonia all sacked the Moab capital city but, for whatever reason, the Philistines always seemed to regain control. ML4E 03:02, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
- They were a bit more advanced than the Israelites. They taught themselves ironworking, the Jews stole it from them. I find it hard to imagine that making that much of a difference. Really all that I can think of would be that their god is more partisan than YHWH and is more willing to forgive their faults, or maybe they're more devout to him, and that his rule is as absolute as YHWH's in, umm, OTL? But that doesn't sound like Turtledove at all. Turtle Fan 03:34, March 22, 2010 (UTC)
- Side note, Israel Defeated is starting to look pretty strong as an Idea Found in Multiple Timelines. Even if NYiJ and LMDA are in the same universe, this one surely isn't. And S&A is also about the Jews getting the smack down. Turtle Fan 20:05, March 19, 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed, although the distinction between the Kingdom of Israel and the State of Israel might confuse things. TR 20:56, March 19, 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe. We've got other countries represented by multiple governments, and we even have Prussia included in something or other about Germany. And even if we don't want it, we can still justify it on the grounds of the Philistine occupation continuing into the modern era.
- Israel is also German ruled in ItPoME, isn't it? Turtle Fan 21:02, March 19, 2010 (UTC)
- Well Palestine is. More a case of Israel being still born rather than defeated. TR 21:23, March 19, 2010 (UTC)
- The territory that would have been Israel, anyway. And while the Arabs must get persecuted, I have to think the Nazis took the greatest thrill of all, and were most thorough about, stomping on Zionism's crib--if not because it was in character for them to hate the Jews especially (it was) then because the book is about Nazis persecuting Jews. Turtle Fan 23:51, March 19, 2010 (UTC)
A Year Plus Later[]
So, has anyone else read this story yet? If so, what did you think of it? ML4E 20:18, May 20, 2011 (UTC)
- I have not. When A&OP drops in PB, then I'll probably snag a copy. But this is the only story in the collection I haven't read, so I couldn't bring myself to pay HC prices. On the other hand, many of those stories are sufficiently good that I do want them in my library as more than photocopies made 2+ years ago. TR 20:56, May 20, 2011 (UTC)
- My situation is similar. I read the two Atlantis stories hanging out in bookstore cafes reading for free, but then the bookstores ran out. I did find a copy at a Border's which was having a going out of business sale last month. They were selling everything in the store for 60% off but even then I didn't bite. Turtle Fan 14:58, May 22, 2011 (UTC)
I see. I borrowed a copy from the Public Library and find I don't have the historical and/or biblical knowledge to get all the background in the story. I'll do what I can and whenever you get your copy you can edit as you think best. ML4E 17:06, May 21, 2011 (UTC)