Talk: Franz Ferdinand of Austria

Don't worry about alphabetizing the categories, TR. They end up in the same place any which way. Turtle Fan 03:06, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Deletion

Actually, we could probably put the TWCE section in the references page.  Keep the 191.  TR (talk) 20:17, September 18, 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. Turtle Fan (talk) 04:46, September 19, 2016 (UTC)

Killed During WW I

Matthew added the cats for OTL/ATL. Technically, WWI didn't start until well after the assassination so should these cats be removed? ML4E (talk) 22:40, December 13, 2019 (UTC)

Yep.TR (talk) 22:51, December 13, 2019 (UTC)

Hist refs

The trend seems to have changed since the 2016 note above. I would suggest that the bit from TWTCE be moved back to FF's own page for convenience, eliminating the hist ref section entirely, since the metaphor is pretty important to HW. And, since it looks like Gavrilo Princip will get his own article for the Leviathan story, the same could be done with him. A lit comm could then be put at the start of both men's articles to say that the assassination is often referenced in stories with post-1914 PODs.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 07:34, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

You overstate the value of the metaphor. TR (talk) 15:03, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

The "metaphor" is an interesting piece of trivia that justifies an hist. ref. but no more than that. ML4E (talk) 15:08, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

His hist ref section is so pithy that it seems the info could be put into his article somehow.

"Pithy" is the purpose of Hist. Refs. Minor references that don't warrant sub-sections in the main article. ML4E (talk) 15:17, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Possibly, See also: Konrad Henlein, a historical Nazi who committed suicide in 1945 at the end of World War II. In The War That Came Early, Henlein is assassinated in 1938, triggering an alternate Second World War. Comparisons to the fallout from Franz Ferdinand's assassination are drawn in universe.

Why do you want to recreate the Konrad Henlein article in the Franz Ferdinand article? ML4E (talk) 15:17, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

I've kind of lost track, why is Matthew so preoccupied with the Sarajevo Incident again? Turtle Fan (talk) 19:03, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Now that the Princip article has been restored with TWPE item placed there, it might make sense to do the same for Franz.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 08:18, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

I don't see the need but I will defer to TR who has done the editing. Personally, I think the assassination and who did it is more important for tWTCE than who was assassinated. ML4E (talk) 16:28, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

The references in TWPE do focus more on the unintended consequences of Princip's actions than the death of Franz Ferdinand and Sophie. So I don't think a TWPE section is warranted. TR (talk) 17:27, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

Lit Comm

And a lit comm at the start of his article saying that his death is often referenced in timelines with a POD after 1914.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 06:03, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Meh. That might have some merit. ML4E (talk) 15:17, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

"Last Flight of the Swan of the East"

The hist ref for Princip says 'In "Last Flight of the Swan of the East", a "Serbian maniac" murders Franz Ferdinand and Sophie in July 1914.' Is that a typo for June, or did the Leviathans universe alter the date as a butterfly effect?Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 06:36, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Differing 1914 viewpoints

I visited a history board and saw two opposing viewpoints.

First, Franz Ferdinand represented law and order, and Gavrilo Princip was a wicked bloodthirsty terrorist who horribly murdered him.

Second, Franz Ferdinand was a racist tyrant who oppressed the people, and Gavrilo Princip was the hero who slew a dragon in the name of freedom.

Maybe both have varying degrees of truth? It’s a variation of the old saw that one man’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter.

Like Game of Thrones, it’s not so much a battle between good and evil, as much as different people squabbling over different agendas.

I’m ready for my close up, Mr. Kurosawa.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 05:49, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I recall reading a rather extensive article a few years back (possibly published during the centennial) that argued that Franz Ferdinand showed promise of becoming a modernizing reformer when he ascended as King-Emperor. The Black Hand moved against him because they feared that Bosniaks, who were already leery of Serb domination, would abandon Yugoslavism altogether if the Dual Monarchy liberalized. Alas, I don't remember any details about this article that would allow me to search for it now, nor do I know enough about this topic to try to reconstruct the argument on my own. I remember finding it intriguing, though. Turtle Fan (talk) 19:45, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

That was one of the bits I heard, that Emperor Franz Ferdinand would have essentially overhauled the Dual Monarchy into a Tripartite Monarchy. This would have made the Croats and Bosnians firm allies of Austria and Hungary, leaving Serbia screwed. So the Black Hand's agenda makes sense in that regard.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 19:58, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

If you're familiar with the charming YouTube channel History Matters, you may have seen that they devoted this week's video to Austria-Hungary, and in it they suggest that any reforms that would have addressed the minority groups' disaffections in any really meaningful way would have been DOA at the Diet of Hungary. Of course the Black Hand may not have fully appreciated this. (I almost wrote "fully grasped this" without realizing the pun, but once I saw it I decided it was too lame even for me.)

I sure am glad that Hungary doesn't abuse its position in multinational institutions to impede desperately-needed progress anymore! Turtle Fan (talk) 20:50, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

On the freedom fighter v. terrorist angle, it seems like Star Trek touched on this in the golden 90s when Deep Space Nine and Voyager ran concurrently. The Maquis were depicted as villains and one and heroes in the other. This could have been a profound statement, and one of the definitive accomplishments of Trek, if it hadn't been so poorly written that the writers lost interest and dropped the matter completely.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 21:12, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

DS9, rarely a show that shied from moral ambiguity, showed the Maquis as sympathetic at some times, wicked at others, and often both at once. VGR rarely did much with them at all, but when it did it brought a bit of nuance to them. Their differences with their Starfleet comrades were usually shown as legitimate, but their lack of discipline was generally exposed as corrosive. And Belanna's depression and self-harm after learning that the Jem'Hadar had slaughtered a bunch of random names offscreen was really quite a moving portrayal of mental illness at a time when TV hardly ever got that right.

That's the frustrating thing about VGR, isn't it? You do a synopsis of most of the characters' bios and they sound incredibly rich and dynamic. But when you watch the show, you hardly ever see it. Turtle Fan (talk) 06:10, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

The Maquis were created for Voyager, but previewed on DSN a year before Voyager first aired, and more active there. The Voyager concept, that two erstwhile enemies had to band together, was jettisoned pretty quickly, as they became one big happy family after the first episode, and the Starfleet-Maquis conflicts from then on never had any more tension than high school clique spats. Voyager was always telling not showing the intragroup tension.Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 10:05, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Not after the first episode, exactly. A weekly Trek podcast I follow recently did a deep dive into the second episode, "Parallax," and reminded me of how fraught the relationship was at that point, and how it immediately came to a head when Janeway had to choose between Torres and Carey to fill the Chief Engineer vacancy.

But it faded very quickly. I think the S1 finale was the last time it really featured in a straightforward way. After that it was only brought up in time travel stories, alternate realities, communiques from the Alpha Quadrant by various people who weren't up to date on the dynamic, and the very enjoyable broken holodeck episode where Tuvok's program to train security officers on dealing with a mutiny turns into a holonovel and then into a trap set by the late Seska. Turtle Fan (talk) 18:43, 24 February 2024 (UTC)