Hey TR, I remember you and I used to discuss The Sopranos from time to time. Have you been watching HBO's latest organized crime drama? Turtle Fan 02:30, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
- Don't have HBO these days. I'll be waiting for Netflix for that. TR 04:14, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
- I see. It started off slow but it's gotten quite good at this point. A very different feel from The Sopranos, the protagonists, such as they are, are much more sympathetic despite being arguably even more corrupt and brutal. Turtle Fan 11:57, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
Perusing through the forum for some other topic, came across this. We're in the midst of watching season 2 on DVD as we speak. We are both quite fond of the show overall. Yes, the protagonists tend to be more likeable than The Sopranos, and the historical aspect hits nearlly all of my buttons.
- Ah, I'm afraid found the second season far weaker than the first. It just felt like character assassination: making Jimmy an asshole, eroding the air of mystery surrounding Richard in favor of making him some sort of dweeb, and so on. The only arc that season that really held my interest was the journey Margaret was on as she wrestled with her conscience, and even that was weighted down by . . . well, I don't know how far along you are, so I won't go into any greater detail.
- The first episode of Season 3 is promising. Gives me some hope of a rebound. Turtle Fan (talk) 06:48, September 22, 2012 (UTC)
The corruption is fascinating, as it shows how in that time and that place, corruption was the way to get things done, and could be beneficial to some sectors in small doses. For a similar sort of tone, see Copper over on BBCA, where our lead is a very good, tenacious cop who rather hates the corrupt class system, but is not above pocketing some loose cash when he kills a bunch of bank robbers. TR (talk) 15:24, September 21, 2012 (UTC)
- My grandfather grew up in Jersey City when it was ruled with an iron fist by Frank Hague (who's made some cameos on Boardwalk Empire, now that I think of it). Hague wore a velvet glove over that fist, however, and the stories I've always heard suggest my family was able to raise its station considerably by playing by the rules. No one ever did anything criminal or unethical, but they all remembered which side of their bread was buttered, and were better off because of it.
- I'm enjoying Copper, and now that Boardwalk is back on I switch from HBO to BBCA and watch the two back to back. (I'm worried that will get to be a drag; I enjoy period pieces, but watching two of them like that may prove monotonous.) I compared it to Boardwalk Empire in that a slow, confusing pilot has not prevented the rest of the season from being interesting. I still find it a bit difficult to follow, I'm afraid.
- But yes, Corky does frequently do things that cause the modern viewer to lift an eyebrow. He sort of fits the type of a hard-bitten cop who doesn't play by the rules, but his means are well within the bounds of what was acceptable by contemporary standards. He's just using them to pursue nobler ends than many of his colleagues.
- A wonderful novel came out last spring which told a similar story. Set during the summer of 1848, when New York created its first professional police force. The protagonist is an unwilling recruit who's fallen on hard times and has gotten onto the force when his more-or-less estranged politically connected brother pulls some strings. He walks a beat just for the paycheck, then he's slowly drawn into an evermore complicated mystery involving a serial killer of child prostitutes. Whenever he identifies a suspect, or a person of interest, that person is able to throw him off the trail by manipulating Tammany corruption and/or appealing to Nativist intolerance, so our hero reluctantly learns how to play that game himself in order to get to the bottom of the matter. Lots of twists and turns, and the identity of the killer completely threw me for a loop. Gods of Gotham by Lyndsay Faye--I recommend it. Turtle Fan (talk) 06:48, September 22, 2012 (UTC)
I've been watching it and I love it. (Donut) 21:14 PM 09/23/2012
- TR did say he's still midway through Season 2, so why don't we table that for now.
- I just watched Boardwalk and am now watching Copper. On the former Chalky made his season debut, and it occurred to me that the protagonists of both shows occasionally interact with black allies, who otherwise only appear in self-contained all-black subplots. Interesting. Turtle Fan (talk) 02:07, September 24, 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, I edited my above post to remove spoilers. Haven't checked out Copper yet but it sounds pretty good, as does the novel you mentioned. Always interested in the history of New York. Pretty rich topic to have a show about. Chalky is a pretty badass charachter. (Donut) 12:50, September 24, 2012
- I liked Chalky at first, but he was another victim of the widespread character assassination that had me so disappointed by Season 2. By the end he was coming off as little more than some grouchy old man who resented youth culture and thought his kids' desire to follow their dreams was just them feeling like they were "too good" for the life he'd led. The hissy fit he threw when his daughter brought her boyfriend home for dinner was pathetic. His reintroduction the other night didn't give me much hope of his getting his mojo back, either. Turtle Fan (talk) 04:06, September 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Chalky fascinated me as well, especially how he brought Purnsley into his fold. But the whole dynamic with his daughter this season threw me off. I miss Manny Horvitz, I thought he was an interesting persona. But Rosetti is gaining the spotlight quickly. JudgeFisher (talk) 05:33, October 3, 2012 (UTC)
Copper Finale[]
For some damn reason, I'm not able to create a new forum at this time. I tried to create [[Forum:Copper]], and it took me to our article on copper. Then I tried to create [[Forum:Copper Finale]], and it took me to the template for creating a new article rather than a new forum.
Never mind, it works now. Turtle Fan (talk) 04:06, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
Finished the Second season[]
Actually completed it some weeks back, but I've been busy.
Anyway--I do agree that Season 2 wasn't as strong as Season 1, but I think I feel that way for different reasons than TF. The overall story-arc seemed to develop in a hap-hazard manner. At times, certain events seemed to happen just to fulfill the 12 episode contract. I know that that there were issues behind the scenes, such as Dabney Coleman's cancer, and that dictated how the plot unfolded (like the Commodore's stroke, his sidelining, and Jimmy abruptly murdering him).
Nucky's trip to Ireland had some interesting meditations on Ireland's history, but served no particular long-range purpose I can see (Sons of Anarachy also had a rather boring trip to Northern Ireland in Season 3 that lasted like 10 episodes; BE happily got it done in two). I guess I realize that Nucky the character is desperate and needed to get his booze from somewhere, but at the meta-level, the needs of the series will decide whether or Nucky's going to prevail; Ireland's value is negligble.
I don't see what purpose Angela's death served; Jimmy couldn't avenge her (and was resigned to that fact anyway). Again, within the series, when people make stupid decisions, other may pay the price, and I get that, but at the meta-level, other than making the audience hate the producers, her death profited the series nothing. (And since William Forsythe is on The Mob Doctor, I'm guessing Richard or someone takes care of Manny PDQ in Season 3, as opposed to a slow-burning "when will Manny get his" plotline.) Now their son will be raised by his baby-raping grandmother. Joy. I respectfully disagree with TF's assessment about Jimmy being character assassinated--his arc was one of the few throughlines that made any sense to me. Right off the bat in Season 1, he and Capone robbed Rothstein's booze, causing a headache for Nucky. When he finally repaid his financial debt to Nucky, Nucky took the money and pointedly pissed it away at a roulette wheel. Nucky also continually needled Jimmy throughout Season 1 about his failure to graduate from college and go to law school as planned, even though Jimmy fought in the war, incurring the inevitable personal cost war brings. So Jimmy's self-destructive streak was always there, as was the resentment between Jimmy and Nuck and I felt that the season handled both in a way that was internally consistent. I wasn't happy that Nucky killed Jimmy of course, but given the course of events, once Nucky beat his federal charges, of course Jimmy was doomed.
I also disagree about Richard's portrayal-he's a very damaged man whose chance for what we'd call a normal life is slender at best. Such people don't always act rationally. Since Mrs. TR announced at some point that she hopes Richard finds someone who will love him (as opposed to saying "wow, what a schmuck"), I think the writers achieved their goals with that character.
I guess I also disagree about Chalky, although that's more because he wasn't the deepest character in season 1, so whatever they did with him in season 2 was going to be more or less consistent. I did have problem with the fact that his obviously educated wife is oblivious to his illiteracy after so many years. That might just be a lack of experience on my part--I've never met anyone who can't read (that I know of).
Van Alden's arc was interesting and consistent, although the abrupt ending seemed rather like the writers suddenly remembered that he'd killed his partner in season 1 in full view of a whole congregation, and oh, shit, they needed to resolve that. Then of course he moves to Cicero, Ill in time to watch Al Capone rise to power. TR (talk) 22:28, November 28, 2012 (UTC)
Season 4[]
One of the new characters this season is affiliated with the NYC gangster Owney Madden, and Madden gets about 2 minutes of screentime in one of the episodes. Madden, besides owning the notorius Cotton Club, had a personal driver who was none other than George Raft.JudgeFisher (talk) 18:24, November 1, 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't notice. Who's connected to him, Dr Narcisse? I like the Doctor. Infinitely more compelling than most newfound antagonists they've brought in.
- Actually, Season 4 in general is thus far the first season I've really enjoyed since the first one, and unlike the first, this season really hit the ground running. (TR, sorry I missed your thoughts on Season 2 last year.) Turtle Fan (talk) 19:51, November 1, 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, he's with Narcisse when they strike up the heroin deal with Arnold Rothstein and Narcisse wipes his hand after shaking Rothstein's....episode 3 I believe.JudgeFisher (talk) 20:09, November 1, 2013 (UTC)
- That sounds right. There are so many historical cameos who flit across the screen, Madden didn't register. Turtle Fan (talk) 04:28, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
A Non-TL-191 Use of the Word "Ofay"[]
I remember some years ago, on this site or one of the AH forums or somewhere like that, someone asking whether the word "ofay" had any historical basis or was something HT had made up as a linguistic development in his fictional setting of TL-191. Well one of Chalky's men called Harrow an ofay in last night's episode (no doubt to the intense confusion of most people who watched it), so I suppose that settles that, unless Terence Winter's been reading Turtledove. (In which case maybe TL-191 really will become an HBO special after all. Not that I'm holding my breath.) Turtle Fan (talk) 23:26, November 11, 2013 (UTC)