Talk:West and East

My what a detailed title. So much for Stalin's War, anyhow. Turtle Fan 20:34, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think there is Evidence that Del Rey will change the title to Stalin's War by June, 2010. TR 21:04, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Most likely. There's Evidence! of whatever one needs there to be Evidence! of.


 * Which is probably why that joke manages to keep going well past its shelf-life. TR 22:12, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * It is rather dated, isn't it. Ah, those were the days. Turtle Fan 22:59, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Already I'm thinking about this book and anticipating picking it up. Why? HW was thoroughly uninspiring and I'm pretty indifferent to seeing how such cliffhangers as there were in the last one resolved. Actually, I'm having a hard time coming up with such cliffhangers. All I've got is the Japanese invasion of Siberia or Kazakhstan or wherever they went in.


 * All the one-star reviews in the world won't pressure HT to go back to telling better stories if we keep buying the books we don't like. Turtle Fan 21:17, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm also in more or less the same position. I think my feelings towards the book were a bit less negative than yours, even though I think our criticisms of the book are perfectly aligned. I did find just enough entertainment value in it that I am curious about the next volume. It's not anything remotely like the genuine I excitement I felt during the early volumes of 191, or Worldwar, or even Atlantis, of course.


 * I guess my feelings are negative. I don't hate the book the way I do TGS or even TG. I guess I resent that HT would tell such an uninteresting story with such undeveloped characters. The premises of both the story and the characters lend themselves to so much more, and I still remember HT at his prime--and have seen plenty of that in recent works, like FP, EIaK, OA, and some of this year's shorts--that I'm profoundly disappointed when he mails it in. I would expect this from someone like Conroy or Harrison or even Tsouras, though BF led me to revise my opinion of him upward quite a bit. From one of those writers, after a story like this fell flat I'd just say "A sequel coming out? Who gives a fuck?" Turtle Fan 22:59, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * And yes, the older series really were so exciting. I'd throw Derlavai in there, too, or at least most of it. Even WBtP was exciting for me, which is ridiculous since I knew how the story ended. Turtle Fan 22:59, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think this book's biggest problem was the focus on the average soldier/citizen to the exclusion of all else. Usually HT is able to strike a better balance--he's always more interested in the little guy, but he has mixed in some of the bigger picture of politicians and generals in the past. In AF, for example, Anne was there to rub shoulders with Wilson, and Flora clued us in on Remembrance politics. We had NOTHING like this in HW. Just Sanjurjo's pilot and Hitler himself. Everything else was sort of blurry.


 * In the last couple of books of TL-191 this was already coming to pass, particularly when Morrell became army commander but just ignored his responsibilities in favor of playing with his tank (I mean, come on! Montgomery did that from time to time, and he wasn't the only one, but he only did it on occasion, and he certainly didn't neglect his duties at HQ to do so.) and Potter getting transferred to the front. (I like how Featherston told him "I did everything I could to keep you here." Right, it's not like even the democratic version of the POTCS is commander-in-chief, with power to countermand any order by anyone in the military, and that as dictator Featherston is even stronger, with power of life and death over every single person between Potter and him in the chain of command. It would have made wonderful sense, now, if Potter had been plotting with Forrest, Featherston had suspicions and wanted to split them up without letting on that he'd figured it out; but it wasn't. That's one thing I hate about so many of HT's novels these days: Things that make no sense at all could be turned into really intelligent developments with just minor tweaking.) But it's much worse in HW. Turtle Fan 22:59, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Would the book have been better if we checked in with Hans in Defense Ministry (or whatever it was called), fretting endlessly about whether or not Germany could overrun Paris before its war machine was stretched to its limits? I think so, for no other reason that the ending would have been more plausible. Same thing with the General's plot. Same thing with the fall of Gibraltar; just one scene were British General Idiot prepares to meet Sanjuro's zig, and is completely caught off guard when Sanjurjo zags would have given us a much better understanding of what happened there.


 * Yeah, a single clue that the Germans might not have enough left in the tank to roll over Paris as they'd rolled over everything else would have saved the book for me--the laziness evident in the ending pushed me over the edge. You wouldn't even need to add a new character; just have Peggy spy instead of sitting around, and get acquainted with Hans. Sending info to Britain by way of her contact at the embassy, sealed in the diplomatic bag, would be icing on that cake.


 * As for the fall of Gibraltar, it reminds me of the operations on TG like the Cuban rebellion, the amphibious assault on Baja CA, et cetera that HT introduced but never followed through on. It's like, after he wrote the scene, he decided it was too boring to go anywhere, but didn't bother taking out what he'd already written.


 * Another note on characters is, in even HT's best war novels, the front-line POVs see and do a lot of the same things, but they're still differentiated for us. We're still invested enough in each of them as an individual, or most of them anyway, that we can keep track of who's who with no trouble. Almost all of the characters in HW were completely undeveloped. I couldn't tell them apart because there was nothing, not one blessed thing, about any of them that made them real people to me. Turtle Fan 22:59, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * I wonder if HT's decision to work in broad strokes was based on the fact that the situation politically hasn't changed much from OTL.


 * But it has! I'd love to see Chamberlain's war leadership. And Hitler purging the military in a Stalinesque fashion--He didn't do that till the end. I'd love to see the effect it has on German military and government during what still corresponds to the OTL period memorialized as springtime for Hitler and Germany. Turtle Fan 22:59, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Compared with two rival republics in North America, the changes aren't huge. I'm not defending HT here, but let's face it, at this moment, Chamberlain has been a wartime PM for about as long as he was in OTL, the Czechs are in exile as in OTL, Stalin is killing people as in OTL, and the French are useless as in OTL. Would the novel have been better if there were closer examinations of these issues? It certainly would have diversified things, anyway. But I could sort of see why HT had things happen the way they did initially, since I know what happened in OTL, and there isn't much reason to think it would have been that different right off (whether or not I should have to rely on my knowledge to fill in gaps in a work of fiction is up for debate of course). I am perhaps inclined to be forgiving of these issues for now. If he doesn't at least try to address them in later volumes, especially as changes are going to be setting in, I'll be unhappy. TR 23:43, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well--I'm the one who's been complaining that this version of WWII is not sufficiently different from the real one. The fact that the war prematurely ejaculated and that Poland switched sides (well, sort of half-switched sides--They were at war with the Russians in OTL too, they just didn't get German help)--These are not history-changing details; they're the sort of thing that factors out as events unfold.


 * I'm not too keen on being expected to use prior knowledge to figure out fiction; but on the other hand I'm not too keen on books posing as AH that really aren't. Watching things unfold just like they did in OTL would likely annoy me. The most comparable situation I can think of is USA, when I bitched that we didn't see much of the root causes of the Atlantean grievances against the British, nor their political as opposed to military expressions. I think I would have enjoyed that; but then, by then Atlantis was billed as parallel history. Turtle Fan 03:22, November 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * Now the changes were presented as the novel went, such as the plot against Hitler, should have been shown. I realize that most soliders and civilians are are going to have a hard time knowing just what the hell is going on in every detail, but why should the reader be kept in the dark? TR 23:43, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Because then there would be no time to watch that rafish Pete McGill on his madcap Beijing adventures, of course!


 * I was trying to come up with a repetitive element to mock (something along the lines of "We can't watch Forrest's conspiracy unfold because then there would be no time to compare the quality of cigarettes, of course!") but there's so little substance to this book I can't even get excited about mocking it from that angle. Turtle Fan 03:22, November 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * Anyway, the biggest thing that keeps my spirits up at this point, as I've said countless times before: no other novels planned for 2010 that we know of. Hopefully, that translates to more time to really work on this one. TR 22:12, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * We can hope. At this point I'd rather he write other novels, though. More straight HF, more comedies like EIaK. Those seem to take less out of him and I have more confidence in his ability to do something with that than in his ability to save this series.


 * Historically, his series tend to get worse over time, not better. I never read EotB but I've heard you and others say it's better than DoI. Thinking of TL-191, Worldwar, and Derlavai (though there was less variation and the finale did recapture much of the old magic), DoI comes across as a rather lonely exception.


 * Hell, even USA wasn't as enjoyable as OA. I think it was you who said it felt like he'd had a semi-novel like the last story in OA ready to go and decided to push it to full-length at the eleventh hour. I agree! Turtle Fan 22:59, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * That probably was me. I certainly felt that way about it, anyway. TR 23:43, November 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well it would be around here somewhere if you did. Of course, the topic drift on our talk pages would make it rather difficult to track down stray quotes like that, wouldn't you think? Turtle Fan 03:22, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

I find the cover oddly pleasing to the eye. Not sure why. The cover copy means nothing. Hitler made the same mistake in 1939 in OTL, and the world paid. TR 04:51, December 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * (yawn) Looks to me like a lame-ass attempt to build suspense in a dull story. Besides, how can the book be set in 1938 when Reggie Jackson wasn't even born until 1946?


 * I agree with you on the other point, though. I was about to comment on it, actually: That's a sexy cover. It will look good on my shelf collecting dust after I've slogged my way through it--though actually, I really am considering not spending money for more of the same quality entertainment HW offered. Turtle Fan 05:43, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

LA Talk Page Transplant (Predictions and Jokes)

 * Western Front bogs down into a WWI parallel. Eastern front much the same way. Siberian Front: the USSR finds itself fighting a two-front war. Stalin is pissed, and throws as much as he can that direction. Some military leaders suggest that this is unnecessary, let the elements take their toll on Japan, and the real enemy is Germany.


 * Or maybe not. TR 20:19, February 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * I predict the characters will fail to distinguish themselves and, since most of them are in similar situations, their scenes will run very much together.


 * I wish I could tell you you're wrong, but...*takes a drag off a cigarette*. TR 23:04, February 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Is that a Confederate cigarette? If so, got one to spare? Even if it's not I'll take whatever you've got. Bad cigarettes are still better than no cigarettes--I wonder what that says about us?


 * Actually, I wish HT had shown a character or two motivated to quit smoking by the dropping quality. Armstrong, for instance, had only started a few months before the war started, hadn't he? Ditto Flora's son. They wouldn't have been hooked; they would still have been in it because they decided it was cool enough to justify a conscious effort, and if it suddenly started sucking. . ..


 * Ah, who cares. That ship sailed long ago. If it's still at sea somewhere, I hope it meanders through the range of Fritz-Julius Lemp's periscope. About time Lemp pulled his weight around here. Turtle Fan 04:42, February 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Pete McGill will meander aimlessly around Shanghai, occasionally getting pissed on by the Japanese garrison, and will put together a mildly interesting travelogue of one of the most rollicking cities in any place and time in world history. Emphasis will be on brothels.


 * See above.


 * Peggy will remain in Berlin, where opportunities for espionage will abound. Everyone there thinks she's a spy, so she will try to prove them long by failing to be a spy at all. Instead she will obtain from Ribbentrop's office a list of all the countries in the world with which the Nazis maintain diplomatic relations, and will work her way down that list, requesting extradition to one country per scene.


 * See above.


 * Trapped in the heart of Nazi Germany, with the vise of the Holocaust tightening ever around her, slowly extinguishing everyone and everything in her life that's ever mattered, Sarah Goldman will soon find herself lonely and desperate, cut off from the ones she loved, and forced into a death-defying gamble to make something interesting happen in this book. At this she will fail.


 * See above.


 * FDR will lose the 1940 election to an isolationist Republican.


 * I doubt we'll make it to the election in vol. 2. HW covered like Sept, '38 to April, '39. Not unheard of for him to jump forward a few years, but, not common either in his war series. (Yes, I know this is a build up to a joke.)


 * Well maybe not. Or maybe he'll invite Philip Roth in as a guest co-author to write about Lindbergh becoming president, starting the Holocaust, disappearing, and FDR coming roaring back to hit the most complete Reset button this side of a Star Trek time travel story (most recent movie excluded, alas). My God that was a useless book. Turtle Fan 04:42, February 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * 47 British MPs will be killed in a terrorist assault on Westminster Abbey; the IRA will be framed but it will in fact be the SS.


 * I think he's saving that for the sequel to MWiH.


 * Oh joy. Turtle Fan 04:42, February 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * An earthquake in the Pyrenees will cause the Iberian Peninsula to detach itself from Europe.


 * Didn't that happen already?


 * Hitler will attempt to purge a popular general in Poland and two divisions loyal to him will rise up in mutiny.


 * Quite plausible, actually. Building on your vague sideswitch idea, could Hitler reach a temporary peace with Stalin just by saying "Here take Poland" in a bid to resolve the France issue? Would Stalin agree, or would he be canny enough to realize Hitler was stalling, and now was the best time to keep going? Could the USSR keep going for that matter?


 * None of these were intended seriously but now that you mention it this would be interesting. I drew the inspiration from the middle Birmo AoT book. All the world's dictators read their own histories and discover who ends up betraying them (though Beria moves heaven and earth to keep Stalin from learning of his daughter's defection). Hitler finds out that Rommel would have turned on him and assumes he can't be trusted under any circumstances. He sends the Gestapo to arrest the Desert Fox and half the Afrika Korps mutinies.


 * Either a Hitler-Stalin ceasefire or a version of WWII in which the Western Front is considered the primary front all the way through could produce interesting divergence. That would make the book worth reading even if the characters all suck and the writing is half-assed. But ever since seeing the title I've had a sinking feeling that it will be devoted to shifting the focus of the action to where it was in OTL. Turtle Fan 04:42, February 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * In OTL Hitler tried to puppet Poland by bringing into Anti-Comintern Pact. Poland was far better prepared to fight Soviets then Germans(terrain, fortifications, war plans) and Red Army was crippled by purges. But then again, it is Turtledove, so I doubt any historic research will be present.


 * Furious that the Prime Minister has adopted the Army's plan to wage a land war in the Russian Far East, the upper echelons of the IJN will launch a coup d'etat against the Diet.


 * That would be kind of cool, too. Would the IJN take that stance though?


 * I doubt it. Certainly Yamamoto would not be on board. And even if the leadership wanted to, I suspect the rank-and-file sailors would refuse if the Emperor made known his displeasure. Turtle Fan 04:42, February 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * All of these earth-shaking developments will be brought to our attention in the most dramatic way possible, by one bitplayer mentioning offhandedly to another that it happened some time earlier. Turtle Fan 22:37, February 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * I fear you are right. Then again, there is still plenty of time for HT to find ways to actually show us these important events rather than tell us about them after the fact, or worse, vaguely hint at them after the fact. TR 23:04, February 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Considering that HW contained fewer than a dozen scenes which were truly indispensible, and that even those had room in which to be reworked, I don't think it was time constraints which led him to mention all the offstage shit. Turtle Fan 04:42, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

I wonder if Turtledove mentions Romania
In OTL by 1938 Romania and Poland had a military alliance-both would defend each other in case of Soviet invasion.

But knowing him, I guess such details will be missed.


 * Or it could be addressed. Either way, as in real life, an alliance is only good if all parties actually honor it.  It's not as if Poland can force Romania to honor their deal. TR 03:08, March 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * This as well. I believe Romania was already obligated to defend Czechoslovakia against Hungarian aggression.  Granted that was very much a sideshow, but they still reneged on the alliance, as did Yugoslavia.


 * Then Hungary and Romania would be on the same side--We know they're at loggerheads. Though Hungary's not really a German ally anymore since Czechoslovakia fell.


 * Antonescu's rise to power, like the war itself, came early. That might make it likelier Romania will join the Axis, or it might not mean much at all. Turtle Fan 02:27, March 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hungary is pretty much of a free-agent at this point. I don't recall it having any political alliances/pacts that it was bound by.  That might be interesting to have Hungary as a sort of Allied co-belligerent.  Or not.  TR 03:08, March 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think they'll end up on Hitler's side. There's something of a pan-Fascist brotherhood seems to be in the works.  They all hang together.  Even to the point that they forget to be racist toward one another. Turtle Fan 04:07, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Plot summary available
Here. My curiosity is piqued by a couple of things--the French sniper vs. German sniper sounds promising. And it sounds like our American Marine Friend may do something of interest. TR 16:42, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * They were able to make the last one sound interesting in the promotional material, too. Still, a few things caught my attention:


 * If Singapore is controlled by Japan that means they went to war with Britain, and surely other Western European allies as well. Since they just committed to a war against the USSR and the Second Sino-Japanese War slogs on, that seems a mite overambitious. But I assume the writer meant to say Shanghai--They all look alike, after all. The Russian in the dance hall and Chinese resistance further this assumption. At any rate, I would certainly look forward to the chance to explore Old Shanghai. (I was planning to explore New Shanghai firsthand this summer, but I had to call that off in the face of economic disaster.)


 * I'd come the conclusion that Singapore meant Shanghai myself. Not unheard of for typos like that in cover copy. Then again, Japan overreaching itself is a bit of theme in HT works.


 * What HT did with Japan at the end--and it's perhaps the most original thing he did in the book--was have Tokyo choose the Army's plan of pushing north and fighting Russia over the Navy's plan of pushing south and fighting the US and Western European imperialists. Given how intense the argument over the two plans was, all the bad blood born of it and the interservice rivalry it spawned, surely no one would say "Why not do both? While continuing the war against China, of course?" A three front war, against every great power in the world except Germany--There's the stupidity of a move born of overconfidence or some other common attribute that affects the judgment of a nation's leaders, and then there's stupidity of a sort so great you never could possibly have ascended to a position of enough authority to have a voice in the decision making process. Imagine a chess tournament inviting someone who thought it was a good idea to open with a rook's pawn. Turtle Fan 19:28, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * However, I remain extremely skeptical that McGill is capable of doing anything interesting.


 * Well, the Russian Dance Hall girl might be a Chekist, and the previously anti-Commie McGill could...stop laughing, it could happen. TR 18:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well . . . with Japan at war with the USSR, I suppose the NKVD would want to set something up in Shanghai, and trying to blend in with the White Russians would be the way to do it. Still, I have to think that if McGill were to stumble into something so convoluted, he'd be too obtuse to notice, so unless HT adds a second, much sharper, POV. . ..


 * It would be interesting to see how if at all HT reacts to fans' complaints about McGill in particular, though. If HT notices our reactions at all, he'll realize we're fast losing patience with this walking intermission. Does he notice us at all? Well--In IatD Carsten abruptly stopped talking about his mission to Ireland in GWI. That's really the only indication I have that he noticed, though that could mean any number of other things. Fan complaints about all the cigarette talk may have led him to make the last paragraph of IatD as something of a joke. Or a flip-off, but that would be pretty brazen considering we're the people who pay his bills. Though we've bought most of his books since then just the same. Turtle Fan 19:28, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I do remember fans complaining about the CS getting all the cool weapons, and then in IatD, a US character complaining about how the CS gets all the cool weapons. I think some of that stuff must filter to him. It's worth pointing out though that complaints about McGill are almost exclusively aired here. Actually, discussion about the series generally is aired here, so that may prove nothing. TR 20:22, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh . . . I'm pretty out of the loop beyond the Wiki these days. I just assume we speak for everyone.  I bitched about McGill in my Amazon review but I don't think he came up in the handful of others I read.


 * That's something that would have made Silver useful, actually. He has HT's ear.  Maybe I should start hitting up Videssos again.  Nah. Turtle Fan 20:39, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * By the way, I think the US getting the cool weapons would have pleased fans of that inclination more than someone echoing them in-universe. Turtle Fan 20:39, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * So Hitler himself authorizes Peggy's departure. I admit, I'm intrigued as to how she got his attention. Though if she just goes home I don't see how she can avoid becoming even less relevant than she was in HW. I complained about the lack of a homefront POV in TG and IatD, but now I want Peggy not to return to the US. Especially if it remains neutral. Who the hell wants to hear about civilian life in a neutral country in a war story?


 * If Peggy meets Hitler, that could lead to her doing Interesting Things on the homefront, like become a pro-war activist (or an anti-war activist). Stop laughing, it could happen. TR 18:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thrilling. Turtle Fan 19:28, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Though the idea that we'll see efforts to make the US neutral no longer has the potential to spice things up a bit. Maybe we will give Joe Kennedy a TWTPE section after all. Should let Gizzi finally make peace with the fact that 191 is over.


 * Indeed. TR 18:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I suspect the sniper in France is not a Frenchman but Jaclav or whatever his name is. He's the one with the antitank gun. As for the sniper duel itself, HT did something like that in Derlavai. I think it was during Sullingen. An Algarvian sniper stalked an Unkerlanter sniper and vice versa. The battle came to a breathtakingly thrilling climax when someone mentioned offhandedly that they'd killed each other some time earlier.


 * Ah, yes, The War of the Rats, filmed as Enemy at the Gates. With a POV as one of the snipers, the likelihood that the plotline unfolds in an interesting manner does increase. TR 18:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Whatever Darkness book this was came out the same spring a EatG did. I assumed the latter influenced the former. Maybe the reason it was written so half-assedly was that HT slapped it on at the last minute when he realized the possible connection.


 * Could be. But that is one of the celebrated events/myths of Stalingrad.  HT might have decided to throw it in to Darkness just to have more parallels, and, coincidentally, the movie came out that year.  TR 20:25, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that could be. It was handled so uninterestingly that I half-suspected HT was parodying the celebration of events and myths in Stalingrad. Turtle Fan 20:39, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe the Allied sniper is not Jaclav. Maybe someone says "You know, Jaclav, another guy with that rifle used it as a sniper weapon. The Huns sent another sniper out here especially to bag him. That was the end of him, so watch yourself." I think I'd laugh until I cried. But I do think, or hope, or tell myself, that such an irrelevant vignette wouldn't make itself into so short a synopsis. Turtle Fan 19:28, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * By the end of HW I was so bored that I forgot what device was on the U-Boat, just that the engineer who worked with it would ordinarily have been too tall for submarine duty. Something to let it stay submerged longer, was it?


 * Wait, that device was described in HW? I guess I need to re-scan it. TR 18:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't even remember whether it was described. I remember that some tall dude went onto the U-Boat to play with some new equipment. He wore a Stalhelm all the time because he kept banging his head on doorways and pipes and shit.


 * That's all I remember about it. Flogging my brain for a detail from the middle chapters of HW is like trying to remember what I did at 3:15 on a tediously quiet Sunday afternoon when no games were on and there was nothing to do. Turtle Fan 19:28, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I wonder why they need to go to such elaborate preparations just to grab Denmark. In OTL, Norway proved a bit of a challenge, at least logistically, but Denmark? The Heer just woke up one morning and were like "Yeah, maybe we'll pick that off after lunch." Turtle Fan 18:02, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * True, but that was before the Battle of France began in OTL. Here, the Battle of France is underway, and we know the German offensive has halted, so allocating resources for Denmark might actually be costly and logistical problems may abound. TR 18:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe. I might ask why they feel they need it at all. As I recall in OTL they grabbed it as a bridge to Norway, which they wanted for harbors on the open ocean. But they knew they wouldn't win the war navally. The oil fields weren't discovered till the 70s--thank God!--so it seems like a Scandinavian campaign would be a frivolous use of resources if it couldn't be taken easily. Unless they want the Hydro Norsk Plant.


 * I realize I'm only thinking about Norway instead of Denmark, but while this part of WWII is not my forte, for the life of me I can't think about anything in Denmark itself that's so worthwhile the Germans would take troops off the line in France to grab it. Maybe it's a deliberately dumb move to show that German strategic planning is suffering as a result of the SS purges. Turtle Fan 19:28, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Aside from possible territorial claims Germany might have in Denmark, I got nothing. Maybe Denmark starts flirting with the Allies? TR 20:22, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * All of a sudden they start pressing claims against Denmark that have nothing to do with Versailles. Timing could be better.  And looking at Denmark's neighborhood, flirting with the Allies without being provoked would not be very wise.  But then I shouldn't assume HT's got no good reason without taking a look at it.  If nothing else it will be a change of pace. Turtle Fan 20:39, April 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, this blurb does have me interested in W&E in general, in spite of myself. Turtle Fan 20:39, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Something Rotten in the State of Denmark
Hey wait, wasn't Denmark Peggy's first choice for escaping from Germany before Ribbentrop clipped her wings? Most of Germany's borders will take her into a combat zone. Going to Hungary, as the gay consul said, would be the end of the line if Bucharest and Belgrade are feeling cranky. Switzerland is uselessly landlocked, Italy is also at war. So if Peggy wants to get out of Axis territory quickly, without trouble, before Hitler changes his mind, Denmark's the way to go. It's the most direct route out anyway, at least with France and the Low Countries being an active front, and surely a safe passage signed by the dictator gives her choice of border crossings.

So I'm saying Peggy suddenly becomes a super-spy. She obtains some piece of intelligence so valuable that it would certainly bring the US onto the Allied side. She charms Hitler into letting her go, but then moments too late the Gestapo tells him that she has this magic piece of information. He scrambles to recall her but she's already in Denmark and the Danes won't detain her. Keeping her from getting home with her intelligence is so vitally important that it alone justifies violating Danish neutrality, even justifies taking men off the line in France.

Now I don't believe that's actually going to happen as I predicted, but Peggy will surely leave through Denmark anyway, so maybe she gets caught up in the invasion as she had in Czechoslovakia. Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in. . . . It would be in keeping with the repetitiveness of her scenes, anyhow. Turtle Fan 02:18, April 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * I like the possibilities of your idea.


 * You know one thing that bothered me about Peggy. Right off the bat, Germans were going to send her to Romania, and she refused.  And then after some months, she was begging to go anywhere.  Now, I realize people live to regret their decisions all the time, but it was just so obviously HT letting the wire show, so to speak, and I could never quite get past it.  TR 14:50, April 9, 2010 (UTC)