Forum:The Big Swith:Discussing as we read (spoilers)

I thought it might be nice to give ourselves a venue where we could discuss the book as we read it, like we did back in the EZBoard days.

First thing I've noticed (other than things I've written articles on, and have scattered thoughts about those on the talk pages) is that Poland still extends Jews legal equality (social equality is another matter, of course) and even has Jews in its army fighting alongside the Germans. This of course disgusts many a Nazi, but Warsaw has stated in no uncertain terms that it expects it allies to respect the civil rights of all Polish citizens. Berlin is respecting their wishes in this matter, reluctantly perhaps, but scrupulously. They're making much of the fact that they're Poland's guests and are only there at Smigly-Rydz's request. One almost gets the sense they'd respect Polish neutrality if Poland asked them to; anyone who's ever read a history book knows they wouldn't, but the reasons given in the book are intriguing. It seems they're afraid that if they get too high-handed, Poland will make a Switch of its own--unlikely to rate as a Big Switch, but given their strategic location it would certainly not be a Little Switch. Turtle Fan 22:47, July 19, 2011 (UTC)

Skipped ahead to skim through the last chapter in search of clues. It looks like, despite having all of Europe coming down on them, the Soviets are actually winning. The Japanese are fighting the US and have invaded French, British, and Dutch colonies as well, so Western Europe is on the US's side there. However, Japan is also winning. My predictions of complicated cobelligerencies would seem to be coming true.

Walsh does resign in protest over the big switch and advocates returning to the war against Germany. He doesn't become an MP but he gets deeply involved in politics and brushes elbows with some--hopefully some historicals. Wilson is becoming more dictatorial and has Scotland Yard harrassing opposition figures. Wilson's a fairly obscure figure in OTL and I'm amused that HT's two versions of him are so different: the dovish restorer of democracy to a country that's been retreating from it for most of a generation, then the hawkish autocrat in a country whose democratic traditions have never been stronger. Turtle Fan 16:55, July 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * I saw that. It seems Ronald Cartland is the point man for the anti-Wilson crowd. Eden and MacMillan are in the mix, plus a couple of others I think are historical. And of course Walsh. I really have no context in the Google search, so I don't fully see all the particulars.


 * Cartland's a good choice. Eden and MacMillan we already have, though in the latter case only because of a sketchy lead-in to a fairly obscure short story. Which doesn't necessarily make them bad choices, but you know I'm always on the lookout for new historicals.


 * For what it is worth, Macmillan actually appeared directly in that story, which is indeed obscure. TR 14:30, July 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * So while Wilson goes from collapsing a semi-fascist government to establishing one, Eden goes from establishing a semi-fascist government, or presiding over its establishment at least, to trying to bring one down. You get the feeling HT's kind of just making it up? Turtle Fan 19:07, July 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * I suspect HT pulled Wilson out of a hat in IatD as the guy who'd make peace under any circumstance, and then with this series realized just what Wilson's PMship could become.


 * I'd never heard of Horace Wilson when HT pulled him out of nowhere. Then for a while I had him confused with Harold Wilson. (That might be why I thought Horace was Labour.) I still know next to nothing about him, so I couldn't say. Turtle Fan 00:56, July 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * Eden I kind of buy in both settings. In WW, without its Empire, Britain is dependent on trade and military aid from other countries. From what I can tell, the real Eden was pragmatic enough to realize that the US was an ocean away, and Germany was one of the big obsticles keeping the Race back. Similarly, the Eden of TWPE is probably smart enough to realize that Germany is going to turn around and bite Britain when it can do so. He's also about 26 years younger than his WW counterpart, so that might be part of it. TR 22:05, July 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Maybe. Unlike other Conservative PMs of the era, it's possible to imagine him acting independently of the US in the Cold War if the circumstances were right. He wasn't as staunch an Atlanticist as a Macmillan, and he wasn't as ideological as Thatcher. Of course, hardly anyone in the industrialized democracies was as ideological as Thatcher. Turtle Fan 00:56, July 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think Peggy also does do some speechifying. FYI. TR 17:11, July 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * That's to be expected. Turtle Fan 19:12, July 20, 2011 (UTC)

Think we should move this to a Forum? It's going to hit great length if we all participate, and the talk page is already longer than Jeremiah without it.

Actually, now that I think of it, having a forum for discussing new releases as we read them would be a really good idea. We'd have a place to enjoy discussing a book with like-minded people, like the EZBoard days, and would also have a central location for discussion if something in the book required some sort of decision on editorial policy or practice. Turtle Fan 19:12, July 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, let's. We don't use that thing nearly enough. TR 22:05, July 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Also makes it easier to avoid spoilers, if you're into that. Turtle Fan 00:56, July 21, 2011 (UTC)

Long before Hess's air drop or Churchill's "accident" or anything like that, there's a fair amount of foreshadowing about what's to come. Harcourt and Sergeant Smokey bitch about the fact that the high command is dominated by the right wing and would probably sooner switch sides. The official Soviet newsreader says some fairly nasty things about the UK and France--specifically, that they're not making any effort to suppress their right wing parties, among a few other insults--and this prompts Sergei's sloshed CO to cry out "Bring on the French and English!" Turtle Fan 00:56, July 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * There was a certain amount of that in W&E-Radio Moscow slammed the Western Allies for not doing enough in Norway, so Russia was probably going to have to invade Finland to keep it from capitulating to Germany. TR 20:51, July 21, 2011 (UTC)